Plenary Session Proceedings
Wednesday, April 24: Afternoon Session

1996 United Methodist General Conference

___________________________________________________

Wednesday Afternoon
April 24, 1996

Bishop S. Clifton Ives, presiding

BISHOP S. CLIFTON IVES: If you would find your way to your seats. Would you be in your seats so we could come to order, please. Our time is very precious. Our time line is very tight this afternoon. I appreciate you all being back here on time so that we could begin this session right on the moment. At the request of a Korean woman delegate just at the conclusion of the last session, I'm going to call on Bishop Hae-Jong Kim to open us in prayer as we begin our session this afternoon. Hae-Jong.

BISHOP HAE-JONG KIM: [prayer]

BISHOP IVES: As all of you are aware, we have a very high privilege this afternoon, that we need to be prepared for, and the time is rapidly approaching when that will occur. As a way of preparing ourselves for that moment, I want to call on John Thomas, who is chair of the Commission on General Conference, who will lead us through our time of preparation. John.

JOHN J. THOMAS (South Indiana): Bishop Ives, members of the Council of Bishops, delegates, visitors, and guests. This is a high moment for us during this conference. And, as chair of the Commission on General Conference, it has been the commission's privilege to invite this special guest for us this afternoon.

The first thing that we will be doing this afternoon is to have songs that will be led by our co-directors of music for this conference. And I now turn the program over to them for that and then I'll be back again.

(songs)

THOMAS: Thank you for that leadership, Cynthia Wilson-Felder and S.T. Kimbrough Jr. What great co-directors of music we have at this time. [applause]

And now we'll have some remarks from a member of our commission, the Vice Chair in charge of program for this conference. I'm speaking of the Rev. Dr. William K. Quick, who is senior pastor, and has been for the last 22 years, of Metropolitan United Methodist Church in Detroit, Mich. He's been an ardent studier of the presidency and especially as it relates to our denomination. His church is one of a interracial mix, and it is with a very great privilege that I introduce the Rev. William Quick at this time to give us some historical perspective on this pending visit. [applause]

American Methodism
in the White House

(For the text of Dr. Quick's presentation turn to page 658)

JOHN THOMAS (South Indiana): You may be seated. Well friends. A high moment has now arrived. In the commission considering who would have the privilege of making the introduction, several persons were suggested and several person requested that privilege. (laughter) I think it's been the wise decision of the commission to pick her bishop to make that introduction. So from the State of Arkansas, the Arkansas area, Bishop Richard Wilke for the purpose of making the introduction. (applause)

BISHOP RICHARD B. WILKE: The joy of this introduction is to present a warm and gracious friend. And I must say, Mrs. Clinton, you have warm and gracious friends here to receive you. (applause)

First Lady Hillary Rodham Clinton Introduced

The honor is to present to you the First Lady of the United States of America, and in many respects, the First Lady of the world. (applause) Twelve years ago, when Julie and I moved to Little Rock, Ark., Julie had joined the First United Methodist Church of Little Rock, and I entered my offices in that very same building. We quickly discovered that Hillary Clinton was a vibrant and vital part of the life of that congregation, serving as a Sunday school teacher, a worker with youth, a faithful worshiper in the church. We were privileged to worship with Mrs. Clinton and Chelsea. In fact we were present the morning that Chelsea was confirmed in the church there and both Governor Clinton and Mrs. Clinton were present. One of the fun evenings was an evening that Mrs. Clinton invited an adult Sunday school class for a picnic on the back lawn of the governor's mansion. Now, that's the way to have a Sunday school picnic! So it was no surprise to me to see in the newspaper a few Sundays after the inauguration the Clintons faithfully trudging through the snow, making their way to the Foundry United Methodist Church in Washington, D.C.

We had no attorney, no chancellor of the United Methodist Church in Arkansas, but we hadn't needed one up until that time. So one day I invited top professional United Methodists, top business leaders of our church, to lunch. I told them we needed a highly dedicated lay person who loved the Lord, knew and loved the United Methodist Church, and we needed an attorney with such sterling stature that any attorney or legal representative in the state of Arkansas would have instant respect. They ate the free lunch. Then they said with one voice, "you are looking for Hillary Rodham Clinton, the finest attorney that you can find." And I was thrilled to have her serve as my church attorney, the chancellor, until the President was elected.

Her great concerns are life-long. Her concern for children reaches back to immunization of children in Arkansas, to presidency of the Children's Defense Fund. Each year she and the governor honored volunteers of Camp Aldersgate, our United Methodist work with children having illnesses or handicapping conditions. I was not surprised when she spoke so forcefully in China, pleading for children, women, human rights. Mrs. Clinton also is in the practice of bringing people together, people of all races and of all social structures.

Those of us who know her have seen her move easily and work carefully with people of all backgrounds. Her recent book, It Takes a Village, continues her plea for the children of the world. Mrs. Clinton, I wore a "Save the Children's" tie in your honor today. She is in the forefront for education for children, always. She is in the forefront of health and safety for children, always. She is in the forefront for the spiritual formation and nurture of children, always.

So, it is my great honor and privilege to introduce a brilliant attorney, an advocate of concerns dear to The United Methodist Church, a loving mother and spouse, a gracious and warm person who walks as easily among the great of the world as she does in a children's ward in the hospital or in a kindergarten room in the school; to present to you my friend, Hillary Rodham Clinton. (applause)

(text of Mrs. Clinton's speech is contained on a separate page)

BISHOP IVES: Mrs. Clinton, on behalf of all of us today, we thank you for walking among us; but more importantly, we thank you for your witness in the world into which you go. Go in peace, and may God bless you. [applause]

JOHN THOMAS: You may be seated. And now, on behalf of the commission, we have asked a commission member, Mollie Stewart of the North Alabama Conference, to make a presentation on our behalf to our distinguished visitor and speaker. Mollie Stewart.

Gifts Presented to Mrs. Clinton

MOLLIE STEWART (North Alabama): Mrs. Clinton, you have graced us with your presence, inspired us with your reflections on The United Methodist Church, and lifted our spirits with your vitality. This has been a historical moment in the life of our denomination. For those of us in the room, it has been an afternoon we will not soon forget. [applause] We trust that for you too it has been a memorable day. In thanks and appreciation, we, the Commission on the General Conference, want to present you with these two items: First, a copy of the commemorative hymnal from this General Conference. [applause] I hope you sing it well. We also want to present to you this wooden trinket box which bears the logo of the General Conference. [applause]

MRS. CLINTON: Thank you, Mollie. That's so very nice of you. Thank you very much. Thank you. [applause, audience standing]

[song: "Jesus Loves the Little Children"]
[song: "My Hope is Built on Nothing Less"]

BISHOP IVES: What a high privilege, a wonderful moment this has been for us. As Mrs. Clinton continues to greet some of the people on her way as she exits the hall, I would ask that we just remain standing in silent respect for a moment.

(song: "There's A Sweet, Sweet Spirit in This Place")

BISHOP IVES: God bless you on your way. God bless you. [applause] [music] Let us be seated. Let's be seated. Can we be in order please?

As we move in transition from this moment into the work of the afternoon, I would like for us, as we have been singing softly, to remain in our seats, and ask Cynthia to come and sing, "Let It Breathe On Me," just to center ourselves around the work that we have in front of us this afternoon. Can we just sing that together?

CYNTHIA WILSON-FELDER: Just to remind you of the text. The words are, "Let it breathe on me. Let it breathe on me. Let the breath of God now breathe on me."

BISHOP IVES: Could we sing that, "Breathe on us?"

(song)

BISHOP IVES: Let us pray. [prayer] Call on Felton May, Bishop May, to bring us the Shalom Zone Report. Bishop May. You may note that we are just slightly behind on our business, so we want to move as expeditiously as we can this afternoon. Welcome Bishop May.

BISHOP FELTON MAY: Bishop Ives, colleagues, sisters and brothers, all, we will wait a few seconds for the clue of the video, and then we shall have the report of the National Shalom Committee.

(video)

BISHOP MAY: It has been God's amazing grace that has given life to the Communities of Shalom movement. I am here this afternoon to proclaim that Shaloms on the loose. Shalom is on the loose in 103 urban and rural communities where laity, clergy, community residents, business people are working toward the biblical vision of Shalom.

Numbers Involved in Shalom Zones

That represents 24 annual conferences with another 16 conferences organizing new sites. It also represents 250 congregations, more than 50 community organizations, 71 ecumenical ventures and a lot of prayer.

Four years ago in response to the Los Angeles crisis the General Conference of 1992 proclaimed that, in solidarity with community residents and churches in a selected neighborhood: "The United Methodist Church commits itself to the creation in Los Angeles, a Shalom Zone in the hope that the Shalom Zone concept becomes a prototype for proactive ministry in other places." Four years later, thousands of people in and around the country and in Zimbabwe declare Shalom is on the loose. The Communities of Shalom Initiative empower congregations to work in a defined geographic area in collaboration with residents and business people on four goals:

Now you will hear the report of the Shalom Committee, a creation of the 1992 General Conference. The committee developed the strategies for Communities of Shalom while working in collaboration with the General Board of Global Ministries with whom we are indebted, especially to Bishop Herbert Skeete, Dr. Randolph Nugent, and the members of the General Board of Global Ministries.

The agency has carried out, without hesitation, the mandate of Shalom. The report will be given by Gaunnie Dixon, staff person for the Los Angeles District and district Shalom coordinator; Linda Bales, a General Board of Global Ministries director, National Shalom Committee member, and a volunteer who took a six-month leave of absence from her employment to coordinate new site development; and Dr. John Schol, urban ministries staff person for the General Board of Global Ministries and the director of Shalom communities. Gaunnie Dixon. (applause)

Los Angeles Shalom Zone
Success Described

GAUNNIE DIXON: Good afternoon. For the people of Los Angeles, I want to say thank you. Thank you for helping to set the gospel of Jesus Christ loose. Four years ago when you responded to the Los Angeles crisis, you set into motion one of the most powerful strategies for church and community transformation. As I meet others from around the country working on Shalom, it's rewarding to see and experience first hand how the love of Jesus Christ is transforming lives and communities. Shalom is on the loose.

This success has not come without pain and struggle, though. The acquittal of police officers in the beating of Rodney King left the community divided and reactive because of years of poverty, of neglect, of racism, classism and social injustices. We found that in Los Angeles, and throughout the world, people are in a spiritual desert.

The 1992 General Conference developed a vision. We found that the development of strategies, resources, and mechanisms took time. No money was allocated by the 1992 General Conference. And the appeal for Communities of Shalom realized $267,000 of a $5 million goal. We found that this demoralized and slowed our progress. For 21 months following the 1992 General Conference Los Angeles suffered several major disasters: fires, floods, mud slides and a major earthquake. During the earthquake, one of our Shalom pastors lost his home. Another pastor's home was seriously damaged and four Shalom churches had structural damage.

Because the Shalom strategy is new, revolutionary and comprehensive, we found that Shalom sites around the country experienced tension as people shift from the old paradigm to a mission evangelism strategy that focuses on church and community development. In the California-Pacific Conference, and across the country, pastoral changes in Shalom churches often interrupted the movement toward Shalom. But we found that laity continued toward the vision of Shalom. Through Shalom, these obstacles became opportunities for growth and development. Often, in spite of the obstacles, people persevered because of God's amazing grace to build communities of hope and daring, Communities of Shalom.

Hear now some powerful stories from Los Angeles and from around the country where Shalom strategies are being used.

(video presentation)

(applause)

BISHOP IVES: As we complete this report, would our guests please be quiet as you're around the edges? It's a little bit annoying to some of the delegates. Go ahead. Linda.

How Shalom Works

BALES (West Ohio): As Bishop May mentioned, I had the opportunity to serve as a staff volunteer for six months with Shalom. And I am here to tell you that it changed my life, and it changed my thinking. It reinforced the power of God's grace in me and in the church. The general church, primarily through the General Board of Global Ministries, assists Shalom sites through three resources.

First; we provide training. A five-part, 35-hour training program assists local sites with mission-evangelism, congregational development, community and economic development, community organizing, public relations, and fund raising. By the end of the training program a Shalom site has a trained team and a written Shalom plan for church and community development.

Secondly; we provide a year's worth of technical assistance following the training.

And thirdly; we assist local Shalom sites with developing and leveraging the necessary funds to carry out Shalom plans. By July of this year, more than 800 people will have graduated from the Shalom Training Program. Reverend David Hutchinson, a Shalom Zone pastor in Houston, Texas, wrote the following to his bishop, Bishop Hearn: "The Communities of Shalom ministry have made me look at life and ministry differently. It has renewed the power of Jesus Christ within me and transformed my ministry forever." Shalom is on the loose.

JOHN SCHOL: We are certainly grateful to Linda Bales who gave six months of volunteer time to the Community of Shalom effort and I'm also pleased to say within the last three weeks, two additional people have come forward and said, "I would like to take a leave of absence from my work and volunteer time with the Community of Shalom Initiative." As Patricia Kersey said: "to come home, really home." Many people have been coming home through the Communities of Shalom Initiative. In the South, a business man said to me, "I've been away from the church a long time, but Shalom is bringing me home." Shalom is on the loose, not by chance, but because of dedication and constant effort; but most of all because of God's amazing grace and the Spirit of God at work through people.

Shalom Uses
Mission Evangelism Strategy

Shalom is also happening because the 1992 General Conference was bold with a new vision. It's happening because dedicated laity and pastors in Los Angeles and across the church in rural and urban communities have been willing to envision a new future and dared new possibilities. It's happening because the General Board of Global Ministries freed staffing and funding. It's happening because new ministry principles are being applied in communities and churches across the country. We're using a mission-evangelism strategy. No longer are we saying "It's OK to only do community outreach without working on spiritual renewal." And no longer is it appropriate to talk about evangelism without working on changing the conditions that individuals and communities find themselves in. We're also using asset-based principles which say it's more important to use our resourses than to try and fix our needs. We're looking at systemic change and changing the systems that are operating in communities that prevent people from moving forward. And we're working in collaboration; no longer as single churches but reaching out and working with other churches, community organizations, businesses and community residents. The spirit of God's amazing grace is changing lives.

To continue this transforming ministry we will need to continue to emphasize several things. First of all, we need to emphasize pragmatic idealism. We need to put an emphasis not on being right, but getting the right thing done. We need to emphasize that we can learn together. Yes, there will be successes and failures. But through them we can be strengthened. And finally, we need to emphasize a sustained effort. This strategy takes time, patience, and commitment for the long haul. Dramatic results will be realized, but it will take four to seven years to see that realization in communities. That sustained effort needs to be at the local church level, at the annual conference level, and at the general church level. Shalom is on the loose.

(applause)

Shalom Hopes for the Future

BISHOP MAY: During this past quadrennium, we have made outstanding progress, a grace-filled beginning, and yet there is still much to be done. Those working on Shalom are prepared to take the next steps to develop 300 sites in the United States and abroad by the year 2000. Utilize the General Advance for Shalom, and a Shalom Foundation to raise $2 million for the development of Shalom sites. We want to celebrate 2000 new Shalom graduates by the year 2000. By God's grace we will do it. We invite you to join, to join us in this dynamic journey of Shalom by: supporting the Shalom Advance in your annual conference; sharing the Shalom ministry with others and inviting churches in your neighborhood to participate in the strategy. And last, but not least, praying for the ministry of Shalom around the world. Shalom is on the loose. Would it not also be possible for Shalom to be on the loose here in this great General Conference?

Perhaps the story of the three kings might be a fitting ending. Oh, I know it's Eastertide and not Epiphany, but the story of the three kings goes something like this. One King, beaten and bludgeoned on the streets of Los Angeles: That King said, unlettered and unlearned, "Can't we all get together down here?" That was Rodney. The other King, lettered Nobel Peace prize winner: He said, "We will either learn to live together as sisters and brothers or die together as fools." Martin Luther King. But then there is the King of kings, who said: "Let us learn to love the Lord our God with all our heart, and soul, and mind and strength, and our neighbors as ourselves." Let Shalom be here in this place. For shalom is on the loose around the world. And if that is true, then there is nothing, but nothing, that can hold United Methodism back. For in the words of Paul, "I am convinced, that neither death nor life nor angels nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor height, nor depth, nor anything in all creation will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus." And that is Shalom on the loose. Thanks be to God. [applause]

BISHOP IVES: Thank you very much. Thank you very much. Now let me help you to understand where we are at this very moment. We are at 25 minutes past three o'clock. Ten minutes past our break time. I'm going to give you the opportunity for the next 15 minutes to practice Shalom. I know some of you have been a little bit annoyed with the noise that's been around you as the guests have been among us and at their moving I want to remind you also that those guests have eaten most of your cookies. (laughter) This will give you an added opportunity to practice Shalom. Let us greet one another during this break. We will return...when we return, we will return to the order of the day at 3:30. But be back at 20 minutes before the hour...twenty minutes before the hour.

(break)

BISHOP IVES: Cynthia, let's sing. Let's sing as we come back together.

CYNTHIA WILSON-FELDER: And as you arrive, at your hymnals, it will be page 127, "Guide Me, O Thou Great Jehovah, Pilgrim Through this Barren Land."

(song)

WILSON-FELDER: As I was growing up as a very young child, we would hear deacons, way in the amen corner, singing this a little bit differently. And it was something like this.

(song)

BISHOP IVES: Hallelujah! And all God's people said, "Amen." Will you be seated and in order as we begin our afternoon session following the break? Here, as I indicated at the time of the break, we were going to return to the Order of the Day which was printed for 3:30. If you will take your seats, we will begin that business momentarily. You note in the Order for the Day we're going to deal with some matters related to the issue of homosexuality. We have petitions from Church and Society, from Financial Administration, and from Discipleship. And we are going to deal with as many of those as we possibly can this afternoon. I know that you feel like you're entering the third lap; you are just turning the third corner on the third heat--the second corner of the third heat of a 1500 meter. And it's important for us to continue to conserve our energy. But it's important for us to begin to pick up the pace. So let us be attentive to one another. I will try to be attentive to the house. I see cards but I would like for us to move to the Order of the Day. Unless you have a matter of extremely high urgency, of extreme high urgency, I would like for us to move to the Order of the Day. Is this a matter of extreme urgency? I will rule whether it is or not. You can come to the microphone 9.

ALFRED RHONEMUS (West Ohio): I would like to know, and I think many of the delegates, how the minority reports will be handled before we start this. Is that possible?

BISHOP IVES: We will be into that in just a moment, and we'll see. Thank you. I would also encourage--are some of you having problems hearing? Can you hear me all right? Do I need to be back? It's very--I'm having difficulty hearing some people when we speak into the microphones. It may be that we just need to settle our spirits down so that when we come to the microphone we can speak as clearly as we can so that everybody in the house can hear us. I'm going to turn to Don Pike, Church and Society, to bring us the first item.

Church and Society Report Introduced

DON PIKE (Central Texas): Thank you. If you would, please, turn in your blue edition of your DCA to page 385. Calendar Item 1677, right-hand column, 1677.

Also turn to page, in your white DCA, page 1217, left hand column, top of the page, Petition 22612. You will notice from your blue DCA that the vote within the committee to support the petition you find on 1217 was: 46 for, 45 against, and 1 abstaining. As a result of that vote we have both a majority and a minority report.

Merlin Ackerson will be presenting the majority report. David Seamands will be presenting the minority report. But I'd like to call on Dale Weatherspoon, who was chairperson of the subcommittee which dealt with this issue, to describe for you the process which they used.

DALE WEATHERSPOON (California-Nevada): Praise God from whom all blessings flow. First of all, I'd like to say that I'm very, very proud of the subcommittee that worked on the legislation on this particular issue. I think in our subcommittee, we were a group of about 33, and when we began on those first days, I think folks came in with their minds made up on which way they were going to vote on the issue. But as the days progressed, our hearts were softened and ears were opened. And the dialogue was good. We were respectful of each other, showing Christian love. And it seems that people finally felt each others' pain. And you can see that in the close vote that we had. I'd also like to thank Don Pike and our officers of the legislative committee for how they facilitated the discussion. They allowed the discussion to go on so that everyone got a chance to speak. And I think they were very, very fair in how they handled the discussion. There was a lot of pain. There was a lot of tension. But we didn't look at this as a win-lose type situation. We looked at it as a way to allow the Lord to work within us; trying to listen to the Holy Spirit, and moving us in the direction the Spirit would have us to move. So at this time I would turn it over to our next presenter.

Majority Report
on Issue of Homosexuality

MERLIN ACKERSON (Iowa): Bishop Ives, members and friends of the General Conference of 1996. I'd like to add to your words, Dale. There was also a lot of love in our subgroup as well as in our Committee on Church and Society. The issue of homosexuality has divided and polarized people called United Methodists for too many years, much too long. This statement that you find in the DCA. It comes as a majority report from the Church and Society Committee, acknowledges who and where we are--a people who are unable to arrive at a common mind on homosexuality and people who are gay and lesbian. Some of us think that the practice of homosexuality is incompatible with Christian teaching. Others of us believe that it is acceptable in covenantal relationships. That's who and what we are.

This statement moves all of us, moves all of us as people of God, called in Christ, to a common and a higher ground where we can come together and go into the future, asking God to continue to love us, to inform us, and to lead us in this very important matter. That unity, if we could achieve it, would really feel good.

This statement that is before us, as a majority report from Church and Society, will help to lessen and eliminate unfair judgment and condemnation of our sisters and brothers. It will end contentious and adversarial relationships and feelings that today so sharply divide us as an important part of the body of Christ called United Methodists. This change that we are calling for in paragraph 71F, will also prevent people from, in any way, using what we as a church say on this subject as a reason for discrimination and even violence against people who are gay and lesbian.

I also believe that this statement is a model for other denominations who also struggle with this issue. We can help to lead the church of Jesus Christ to an experience of reconciliation in passing this report. And that, my friends, would feel real good as we go into the future believing that God has a future for people called United Methodists, people who are of Jesus Christ.

BISHOP IVES: Thank you. The majority report is before you. You note also that there is attached to this a minority report. Mr. Seamands, were you going to bring that minority report?

Minority Report
on Issue of Homosexuality

DAVID SEAMANDS (Kentucky): Bishop and fellow delegates. I think it is very fitting that we are voting on this issue at this place, in Colorado, because not far from here, about an hour's drive up in the mountains, there is a line that is called the Great Continental Divide. And I think there is an ethical continental divide that separates these two reports. Later on in my closing remarks I will give the reasons why I am against the majority report, and why I think we should support the minority report. But for now, I just want to clarify the issue.

I believe that to delete the two final sentences of paragraph 71.F, and substitute the words of the majority report, is not merely a subjective rephrasing of words in order to express what appears on the surface to be a more open and compassionate attitude towards homosexual persons. It is the deletion of our basic, bottom line, biblical and theological stance on homosexual practices. Namely: same sex genital intercourse. For it is this very paragraph, 71F, that is the rationale behind all the other paragraphs in the Discipline, like 402.2 regarding ministry, and 906.12 regarding finances.

Paragraph 402 begins by referring to this paragraph. And, 906 implies relationship to it. But deeper than this, to accept the language of the majority report would also change the biblical standard for heterosexual, one-fleshness intercourse. The biblical standard is objective, unambiguous and confines full one-flesh sexual intercourse only within the context of heterosexual, monogamous, marriage.

And to substitute this statement from the majority report, which is an ambiguous, subjective standard which defines the limits (to quote) "the context of human convenantal faithfulness." Now these are poles apart. I will later summarize and give the reasons behind all of this. But for now I simply want us to understand that these two reports represent, literally, an ethical continental divide, and in a very important moral issue. And as my eighth grade teacher used to dramatize about the two drops of water falling on the continental divide, our votes ultimately determine into which ocean they will ultimately flow. Thank you.

Process for Perfecting Reports on Issue of Homosexuality

BISHOP IVES: It is my opinion, as I read the minority report, I see it as is stated that it is indeed not a minority report. It is simply a negation of the majority report. If the majority report will be defeated, we will have the minority report. I'm not going to rule it out of order at this point because I know how important this matter is to everyone here. The process for dealing with a majority and a minority report is to first perfect the majority report and then perfect the minority report. My opinion is that there is nothing to perfect in the minority report. It's a simple statement that we keep language which is already there. Therefore, I would like for us to move to the majority report, to deal with it, but thereby still offering to Mr. Seamands the opportunity to speak to the minority position prior to our taking formal action on these reports. Does the house agree with that kind of movement? Then let us proceed with the majority report. The majority report is before you. I...here in the middle of the, on the left, go to microphone number...in the middle, right here, yes. Microphone 9. Point of order has been called for. Hold it, number nine. Yes? Come to microphone 4. Number five, excuse me.

EKE A. HALLOWAY (Sierra Leone): My point of order is that--is in respect of, with the greatest respect--interpretation given by the chair to the minority report. I would think, considering the voting status of the so-called majority report and the minority report, that the minority report should constitute, as it were, that's looking it pari passu, a counter motion to the majority report, which is the motion before this house. And therefore, as a point of order, that the minority report or the so-called minority report, which I will term as the counter report, be treated first before the so-called majority report. That is the order of--with the greatest respect--my Lord Bishop.

BISHOP IVES: The house heard my statement that I am reluctant to call the minority report out of order, which I think I could do. I've suggested to you the way I would like for us to proceed. My decision has been called into question. Does the house sustain the chair's suggestion or do you want me to take other action? If you would sustain the chair, signify with the uplifted hand. If you would not, like sign. Thank you. Then we will proceed. Microphone 9.

Scripture and History Support Majority Report

LINDA CAMPBELL-MARSHALL (New England): The word that is before us today is "homosexuality." But I would like to refocus us a little more clearly on the first line of the majority report where another word beginning with the letter "H" is used--humility. It seems to me that the church has been where we now are, many, many times in our history. In the book of Acts we watched the church wrestle with the issue of circumcision. We listened as they decided whether or not they could be a unified body in the light of their conflict about that issue. During the Middle Ages we watched the church wrestle again with the issue of whether or not the earth was flat. For a long time the church stood in the wing of the opportunity of persons to take clearly the word of God into their own hearts. A hundred years ago this General Conference was wrestling about whether or not the church would disintegrate if women were seated on the floor of this body. Forty years ago we wrestled about whether or not the ordination of women would destroy the integrity of the gospel. In the middle of the last century we did divide the church over the place of slavery, each of us witnessing to the power of scripture for our own position. I would invite us today in this historic, divine moment to move toward humility.

BISHOP IVES: That's a speech in favor of the majority report. I move to the gentleman. Yes.

Scripture and History Support Minority Report

PHILIP R. GRANGER (North Indiana): I rise to support you the minority report, and/or the current provision of 71.F. This section of the Social Principles is a prophetic statement. It is a prophetic statement to the world that offers no boundaries to sexual expression. One gift that The United Methodist Church offers to our contemporary society in paragraph 71.F is a message of redemption, grace, and transformation. To young people, our statement offers the necessary guard rails to protect them from sexual brokenness. The church has always opened its doors to the world. That's not the question before us. It has always offered an opportunity for the life-changing power of God to overcome whatever form of brokenness, sin, that separates us from intimacy with God and the pursuit of a holy life. The biblically prophetic message has always been more interested in truth and transformation than in consensus and conformity to the world's standard of morality. What the church often finds excusable and acceptable--excuse me, what the world often finds excusable and acceptable, the church does not, and cannot. Racism, sexism, exploitation of the poor, promiscuous sexuality in any expression, heterosexual or homosexual; these actions and thoughts are all unacceptable in the light of the redemptive and transforming nature of the gospel of Jesus Christ. The prophetic, life-giving message of the gospel is that people can be transformed; transformed from bigotry, sexism, and freed from whatever that is that separates them from God. Let us continue to offer an open hand of transformation to the homosexual. Let us not clench our fist to the possibility of grace and mercy poured out from the mercy seat of a loving Lord and Savior.

Let's continue to be a prophetic church and continue to retain the current language in paragraph 71.F.

BISHOP IVES: Your time is up. Thank you. In this section in the very back. Yes. Go to microphone 14. That was a speech...are you speaking for the motion? Microphone 14, are you speaking in favor of the motion? Yes, I am. (unidentified speaker)

BISHOP IVES: OK. Excuse me. I think I recognized the person who was just coming to you.

JEANNE BARNETT (California-Nevada): Thank you. I first addressed this body four years ago as a member of the committee to study homosexuality. And I return to this General Conference as a member of the California-Nevada delegation. One day I turned a page in my life's book at age 50 and discovered I am a homosexual, a lesbian. It did not cancel my baptism in the Methodist Church in Oklahoma where my father ushered and sang and my grandmother played the piano for years. Nor did it cancel my youth as an active member of The United Methodist Church in Central Methodist in Phoenix, Ariz.; nor my current work in the California-Nevada Annual Conference.

I urge you to vote for this, and to recognize that all of us are members of the church, members of faith, and delegates here. I call on you to support this. Thank you.

BISHOP IVES: Thank you very much. To the far right. Yes. Is this a speech against the majority? OK.

MARTIN CASE (Mississippi): The majority report contends that there is no clear cut word about God's will concerning homosexual practice. The scriptures, which are our foundation of faith and conduct, have spoken with enough clarity for us to conclude that the practice of homosexuality is incompatible with Christian teaching. Two thousand years of collective wisdom have confirmed God's witness through scripture. Strong statements could be given from the Old Testament. The affirmation of Jesus of God's plan in creation for marriage, a man and a woman, could be stated as the only option Jesus gave.

But I want to say just a quick word about the Apostle Paul, who wrote more of the New Testament than any other writer, who said more about the all inclusive, abundant grace of God than anyone else, and who literally laid down his life to share this amazing grace made available for every person. Paul gave us I Corinthians 13--that awesome proclamation of love from which Bishop Dew took his text in today's worship service. No one has ever offered Jesus Christ as a savior for all more than Paul.

But Paul spoke with some of the strongest words against homosexual practice. To have placed the present language, in paragraph 71.F about homosexuality with the majority report, we send a confused witness to a confused world about our commitment to God's word, to say nothing about the confusion of tens of thousands of our own members. Thank you.

BISHOP IVES: Thank you. Right down here in the front. Yes. Are you speaking for?

Teen Speaks on Issues
of Homosexual Debate

TIMOTHY YOOST (East Ohio): Yes. As a teen-ager growing up with my brother who was also a teen-ager, there are many issues that the two of us argued diligently over and feel very strongly about how we stand. Many times my mother will interject into the argument and ask, "Why are you arguing about something that neither of you know the answer to?" This, my friends, is what I feel is happening here.

While there are two sides who feel they are right, and will argue diligently, neither side knows the definite answer of how we can come to a common mind. This statement recognizes these two sides; it allows both sides to be heard. Thank you.

BISHOP IVES: Thank you very much. [applause] Yes. Are you speaking against the majority report? Yes, OK. Go to number 8.

DUANE SARAZIN (Minnesota): If it's in order, bishop, I would like to offer an amendment.

BISHOP IVES: State your amendment, please.

SARAZIN: I would like to amend the majority report by adding this statement at the beginning of the paragraph, "Although the majority of us do not condone the practice of homosexuality, we acknowledge with humility," and then the paragraph would continue. If there's a second I would like to speak to it.

BISHOP IVES: The motion is seconded. You may speak.

SARAZIN: I am a conservative Christian. My colleagues and friends know this about me. I have had many relationships, dialogues over my years of ministry with gays and lesbians. I believe that we are at a point in our church life when we need to state exactly who we are and where we are so that we can move out of the arena of debate; where we continue in large forum to state the arguments that we are all so used to; and move into the arena having acknowledged where we really are--not of one mind--into that arena of one-on-one dialogue.

We need to continue the study; but more than study the conversation and relationship, trusting that God's spirit will give us wisdom to know how to interpret the scriptures; to know how to interpret the moving of the spirit for this day. Thank you very much.

BISHOP IVES: This was a speech in favor of the motion. We are in order to have a speech again the motion. And at this point I want to remind all of you to please refrain from applause. Will you please re-read the motion, the amendment?

I should remind you to, let's refrain from applause during our time together. Yes? Here, listen carefully to the amendment.

Language of Report Restated

SARAZIN: At the beginning of the majority report, this statement:

"Although the majority of us, does not condone the practice of homosexuality, we acknowledge, with humility, that the church has been able to arrive at a common mind on the compatibility of homosexual practice with Christian faith," and then that paragraph would continue.

BISHOP IVES: Thank you very much. Are you speaking against the amendment? Come to microphone 9...Excuse me. I recognized the gentleman behind you who is coming to the microphone. Excuse me.

JACK PLOWMAN (Western Pennsylvania): I would like to offer an amendment to the amendment by restoring the last two sentences of paragraph 71.F, and then with the text as authored in the amendment.

BISHOP IVES: You would like to amend the amendment by adding? Say what you want to add.

PLOWMAN: I want to restore the last two sentences of paragraph 71.F.

BISHOP IVES: Would you read them please?

PLOWMAN: Well, I'm sorry, I didn't bring the Book of Discipline here with me.

BISHOP IVES: So we can be very clear what it is that you want to add.

PLOWMAN: The last two sentences of paragraph 71.F states as follows: "Although we do not condone the practice of homosexuality, and consider this practice incompatible with Christian teaching, we affirm that God's grace is available to all. We commit ourselves to be in ministry for and with all persons." Thereafter, to be followed by the paragraph as proposed in the amendment. As proposed in the majority report. As it has been in the process of being amended. As it is...

BISHOP IVES: Sir, you do not wish to change the amendment, you only want to add to it?

PLOWMAN: That's correct. To the amendment.

BISHOP IVES: OK, the motion is before you. Do you understand? Does the house understand the amendment to the amendment? The house is not clear on the amendment to the amendment yet. It is my understanding that it is to add to the majority report the words that he read at the very conclusion of the majority report. Is that clear? At number 9. You want that at the beginning of the report? At what point are those words placed?

PLOWMAN: Well sir: The majority report recommends the deletion of paragraph 71.F, the last two sentences. My amendment proposes the restoration of those last two sentences. Thereafter, to be followed by the amendment proposed by this gentleman.

BISHOP IVES: In other words, you want it at the very beginning?

PLOWMAN: That's correct, sir.

BISHOP IVES: OK, is the house clear? The will is to have those words at the very beginning. Now I need a speech against the amendment to the amendment. Over here. Yes? Come to microphone 7?

Pastor Speaks
of Local Church Experience

J. PHILIP WOGAMAN (Baltimore-Washington): Bishop, I rise to oppose this further amendment. Its effect is simply to negate the majority report. The majority report is honest and truthful. There are people of good faith who disagree with one another on these matters. We do not yet have enough information to bring closure to this issue.

In particular, it seems clear that there are some homosexual persons who are not capable of changing their sexual orientation. It is also clear that there are some who are capable. We do not have closure upon that issue. The church must be careful not to condemn, not to stigmatize, when it does not have a really clear basis.

We know enough to warn people clearly about sexual promiscuity. The Social Principles are already and properly clear about that. But those of us who minister to homosexual persons, know that there are those who lead exemplary Christian lives. The statement is honest and truthful. It is also the kind of statement that can bring healing to our church.

My own local church has struggled with this issue. Through several years of study and honest dialogue among mutually caring Christians, we have learned in our church to be respectful of one another's positions. We do not have to have the final word on everything. Are the reports poles apart? Possibly so. When that is so, it does not have to be one pole winning, the other losing. Yes, we are near the Continental Divide. The waters of the great Rockies flow to the great Pacific Ocean and to the great Atlantic Ocean. Both deep recesses of God's beloved earth. Let us not hastily close off one side or the other. My friends, we need one another. We need healing on this issue. Thank you.

BISHOP IVES: Thank you. Now, we're on the amendment to the amendment. I need someone who is willing to speak in favor of the amendment. Come to microphone 8, and state your point of order, please.

AMY SPACHMAN (West Michigan): I think the amendment to the amendment, to the amendment to the amendment, can get really confusing sometimes. And I'm sure it's really hard for the interpreters to get that all back to our delegates who don't speak English. So I would ask you, the chair, respectfully to read the statement how it is, with both the amendments, and continue to do that when something else is added. Thanks.

BISHOP IVES: OK, you're asking for a reading of the amendment to the amendment as we have it here. Ask the secretary to read that for us please, as you have it. This is the amendment to the amendment.

CAROLYN MARSHALL: The amendment to the amendment was to restore the last two sentences as they now are in 71.F to be followed as a proposed resolution which read...do you want me to start with the Discipline, those two sentences, and read it as it would be?.

BISHOP IVES: Yes, read it as it would read please.

MARSHALL: "Although we do not condone the practice of homosexuality and consider this practice incompatible with Christian teaching, we affirm that God's grace is available to all. We commit ourselves to be in ministry for and with all persons. Although the majority of us do not condone the practice of homosexuality, we acknowledge..." and then go on with what is printed there on page 1217.

BISHOP IVES: In the majority. Thank you for asking for that clarification, and we'll try to move slowly enough so that we can continue to do that. You have a point of order. Yes. Microphone 4.

DAVID RICHARDSON (California-Pacific): If the motion was to delete; and the minority report is to keep it in; and now we have a new motion to put it back in; it seems like it's just the opposite. I mean, I don't understand how that can be in order; to put back in what the motion's already said to get rid of.

BISHOP IVES: Well the motion is in order to...the way we have received it. I hear your statement to be one that seems to indicate that the house would like to move along on some of this. But it was in order. Well let's see. Where was I last? Let's go down front here. We haven't been down front; haven't been back there either. Let's go down here. Are you speaking in favor or against?

DAVID WILSON (Little Rock): Opposed.

BISHOP IVES: You're opposed to the amendment? OK.

WILSON: In response to the last speech concerning this issue--regarding the church not knowing where it is, and its importance for us to be honest--I think it's more than an issue of honesty. I think it's also an issue of authority. I serve in a resort area--Hot Springs, Ark--Paramutual gambling at the race track. I have folks in the community and in my church who say it's OK to gamble; and others say they should not gamble.

We take a stand as The United Methodist Church regarding gambling. And it's a firm stand. And I believe that if we are to speak with authority on gambling, we have to be willing to speak with authority on other moral issues. And I think for us to go home just saying that we really don't have a position on this is to fail the church as leaders of the church.

BISHOP IVES: I would say that was a speech in favor of the amendment rather than in opposition to it. So I would seek a speaker in opposition to the amendment, yes. Come to microphone 6.

African Delegate Speaks on Financial Assistance to Homosexual Issues

NDJUNGU NKEMBA (Southern Zaire): (translation from French) We cannot be divided when we look through in the Bible. Leviticus 18:22, we hear that God says strongly that you cannot sleep with somebody with the same sex. When we go to Romans 1:18-27, the same thing is there. And when we gather here trying to divide the church because of sin, I don't think that that is right. We want to help those who are in drugs and alcohol. Why can't we provide money to help those who are homosexuals in order to get them out of where they are, out of sin, and help them.

In Ezekiel 23:7-9, tells us that you, who belong to God--when you see your brother going astray from God's will--if you don't help the person to go from that way--if he dies or she dies from there, you will be responsible. I will ask you for his blood or her blood.

BISHOP IVES: Thank you. I think if the interpreter would indicate to the delegate please that his time is expiring. Thank you very much. I interpret that to be a speech in favor of the amendment. Therefore we really need to have the speech in opposition to the amendment. Yes, standing right in the middle waving the card. Yes I see you. No, the woman in front of you, please. Go to number 8.

ELLEN BRUBAKER (West Michigan): I am speaking in favor of, or against the amendment. I believe that I learned the most that I could learn recently about this issue from a colleague with whom I disagree on a great many things. He is the pastor in a small community where it was discovered that one of the teachers in one of the public school systems was in a covenant relationship with a person of the same sex.

ELLEN A. BRUBAKER (West Michigan): Knowing how that must have torn at the fabric of that community and of our United Methodist Church there, and knowing that this particular colleague, despite our differences, is my friend. I called him to say simply, "How are you doing in the midst of what must be diversity and grief for you in your local church, for surely you have persons on both sides of the issue?" The issue was to drive the teacher from his position in the school.

My friend said, (and before he finished saying it, I was in tears,) "I went in to my ministerial association and I asked of us one question." And the question he asked is the one that I see amazingly absent so often in this discussion. We cite the Levitical laws; we cite Paul. The question my friend asked was, "What would Jesus, our Lord, do in this situation?"

I believe that for my colleague and for myself, as I dissolved into tears, that that's the one question needful, that we ask in this situation. Jesus said nothing. The majority report, without the amendments, admits that we are still struggling in the spirit of Jesus Christ, with where God's grace and love would take us, and we are not yet finished; that we might receive and love all persons in the life of the church.

No Vote on Amendment to Amendment

BISHOP IVES: Thank you. Now we've had three speeches in favor of the amendment to the amendment and two in opposition. Are you ready to vote on this matter? I feel the house is ready to move to vote on the amendment to the amendment. Do you need to have it stated? You know the amendment to the amendment which you are voting on? Please vote when the light appears. [Results: yes, 348; no, 569] The amendment to the amendment is defeated, and we return to the amendment.

Can the secretary please read the amendment now so that the house will be clear upon that which we are now speaking?

CAROLYN MARSHALL: "Although the majority of us do not condone the practice of homosexuality, we acknowledge..." and finish it as it is printed.

BISHOP IVES: We have had one speech in favor. I am prepared to receive a speech in opposition to the amendment, if it is your will to do that. Yes, in this section. Go to number 8.

"In All Things, Charity" Offered as Amendment

NANCY DUEL (Northern Illinois): I would like to remind us of the theme that is before us to the right of the screen. The last line says: "In all things, charity." I believe that the essence of the majority report is for us to be in charity with each other on this issue. By adding these lines at the beginning, about who is in the majority, defeats the purpose of this statement to heal us, and to give us...to have more time to discern God's will.

BISHOP IVES: Thank you. Now, if there is a speech in favor of the amendment? Over here, yes. Go to number 9.

UNIDENTIFIED DELEGATE FROM MEXICO: (in Spanish)

BISHOP IVES: Interpretation please. Interpreter?

INTERPRETER: This is not in favor of the majority.

BISHOP IVES: Would you be patient a minute; we'll get some interpretation.

Interpretation at microphone 9, please. Speak, and see if the interpreter will come.

UNIDENTIFIED DELEGATE FROM MEXICO: (in Spanish)

BISHOP IVES: We're not hearing the interpretation.

INTERPRETER: I would like to speak in favor of the majority report.

BISHOP IVES: You may speak in favor of the majority report. It is the amendment that is before us. Are you speaking in favor of the majority report or the amendment? It is the amendment that is before us now. You would like to speak later. OK.

INTERPRETER: I hope I could have the floor at a later time.

BISHOP IVES: We will try to recognize you. Is there someone else back in this section who wanted to speak in favor of the...Yes, I see you way in the back. Way in the back. Yes. I saw a card. There you go. I just...I only saw a card sticking up there, but let's see what we can...15.

SUL A. NAWEJ (Southern Zaire): (in French)

BISHOP IVES: Do we need interpretation again?

NAWEJ (through French interpreter): Bishop, president. I believe the question of homosexuality takes us away from the natural base. We have male and female trees. We also have male and female animals. I believe that the opinion of Jesus Christ would be the following: When the rich man approached Jesus, he told him that he had practiced all the laws correctly. Jesus told him that he was missing one thing. The young man who had said that Jesus was a good master, left with much sorrow.

The second time it was the adulterous woman. She had been condemned by the Jews, but afterwards, everyone went away. And Jesus said, go away and do not sin anymore. Of course, we want our brothers to enter into the church, but that they benefit from the grace of the church, and reconcile themselves with the church. We love them, but we want to say to them, "Go and do not sin anymore."

BISHOP IVES: Thank you very much. That's a speech in favor of the amendment. Yes, down here.

BISHOP IVES: Yes? Down here. Are you speaking against the amendment? Yes, come to microphone 2.

Speaker Calls for Leadership by Delegates

JARED E. NEWMAN (Rocky Mountain): The first thing I'd like to say when it comes to homosexuality is I don't know what the answer is. I don't know if it's a sin, or I don't know if it's not a sin. I haven't, in my relationship with God, I haven't been able to determine that yet.

However, when it comes to this issue, it is crystal clear for me. The language that this amendment proposes to add condemns our gay and lesbian brothers and sisters. It tells them that we do not condone you and we do not want you. The argument is made that back at the local church 80 percent of the people are in favor of retaining the language.

Well, we are the leaders. We need to turn this around. When Christ met at the table with the tax collector--I think his name was Matthew--he sat down and had dinner with him before Matthew, the tax collector, reconciled his sins. Christ welcomed him to the table, welcomed him to his kingdom before the sinning was done.

I think that there's more that the homosexual and gay and lesbians-- whether it is right or wrong--there is more issues to that to our faith. There's more that they need to be experienced to. We need to open our doors. We need to let them in. Invite them in. Welcome them in. Because we don't want to miss the forest of our faith for the trees of issues like homosexuality. We don't need to deny people what they need for petty sins, because we do all sin. [applause]

BISHOP IVES: Let's refrain from applause. Let me see if I can have the sense of the house at this point. We've had two speeches in favor of the amendment and two in opposition to the amendment. We've had three speeches in favor of the majority report and two speeches against the majority report. It seems to me that we're at a point where you may be ready to vote on the amendment. Having voted on the amendment we could turn to the person who made the minority report and then to the person who brings the majority report, and then be ready to clear this item. It seems to me that the house is ready, but maybe there are those who think otherwise. Yes. Back here. Microphone 9.

Homosexual Practice(Not People) Unacceptable

AKASA UMEMBUDI (Central Zaire): (through French translation) Bishop president, I believe this is a question of . . .

BISHOP IVES: A question?

TRANSLATOR: No, this is an issue of understanding.

BISHOP IVES: Is this another speech for the amendment?

UMEMBUDI: I'm completely in agreement. I think we should vote, but I would like you to allow me to speak.

BISHOP IVES: Can you make a one-sentence statement?

UMEMBUDI (through French translation): One sentence, only. We are not against our brothers and sisters who are homosexual. We love them, but what we cannot accept is the practice. The doors of our church are open to everyone.

BISHOP IVES: Thank you. I would take that to be a speech in favor of the amendment. Are we ready to vote on the amendment? Do you need to have it read? If you are ready to vote on the amendment to the majority report, please vote when the light appears. [Results: yes, 454; no, 499]

The amendment fails and we are now on the main motion. Excuse me, did I read it wrong? Put it up again. OK, we've got lots of points of order. Let's see who has got the first point of order. Right here. The amendment failed, the way I read it.

CHARLIE DUNDAS (Minnesota): Bishop, with all due respect, I believe some of us believed we were voting on whether we were going to vote.

BISHOP IVES: OK.

DUNDAS: And so I would ask that the vote be put again and that it be clarified.

BISHOP IVES: OK, if the house is not clear. I was assuming that we were ready to move on the amendment. I didn't hear a motion from the floor calling for the question. I was just moving us along. If you would like to vote at this point, if this is a call for the question as to whether we will vote or not on the amendment, please vote when the light appears. [Results: yes, 868; no,72]

I think you're ready to vote on the amendment. We're voting on the amendment to the majority report. Do you have a question? It's only a question. Because we're under a previous question at this point, so it's only a matter of high privilege or question.

PATRICIA L. MILLER (South Indiana): I would just appreciate if the secretary would read where we are and exactly what we're voting on.

BISHOP IVES: OK, the secretary will read the amendment upon which we are to vote now without further debate.

CAROLYN MARSHALL: The amendment is to preface that which is printed on 1217, Petition 3612, with, "Although the majority of us do not condone the practice of homosexuality we acknowledge," and then finish out that which is there printed.

BISHOP IVES: The amendment is the addition of those words. Question? Microphone 4.

MICHAEL WATSON (Alabama-West Florida): This is indeed a very, very important matter.

BISHOP IVES: All right. If you have a question, ask your question.

WATSON: My question is, did everybody in this house understand-- those from other countries and those of us even here. If we understand.

BISHOP IVES: I think that, do you have a problem of understanding that you are raising a question?

WATSON: Yes, I do.

BISHOP IVES: Well, what is your question?

WATSON: My question is if we vote this amendment, if we vote positively, does that then become the majority report?

BISHOP IVES: It becomes an addition to the majority report upon which we will then vote.

WATSON: That's my clear understanding.

BISHOP IVES: OK, thank you. I think we are ready. When you are ready, which I think is right now. On the amendment to the main motion, please vote when the light appears. [Results: yes, 369; no, 592]

The amendment fails. And that takes us to the main motion and it's important for us now to hear, if you're ready, it's important for us to hear statements from the minority and from the chair. Is this a point of order? Microphone 3.

DONALD MESSER (Rocky Mountain): I believe you've already ruled this, but in case you haven't, I'd like to move the question on all that's before us.

BISHOP IVES: The motion before us is to move the question on all that is before us. That is the motion which I will put without debate, unless somebody has a point of order. Point of order. Let's hear it. Number 9. Point of order.

BETTY WHITEHURST (Virginia): Bishop, it is extremely difficult for the delegates from other countries with translation to be a part of the process. The delegate from Mexico has been trying to speak and did ask you if he could be heard later, so I would urge you to allow him to speak.

BISHOP IVES: He did indeed ask that question. But now we're under the motion for the previous question and I think we need to vote on that. Point of order. Yes? Microphone 5.

JUNE GOLDMAN (Iowa): Thank you Bishop. I just needed a point of clarification. I thought that you had indicated that we had only had...You gave a certain number of speeches that had been made for the majority report. This was prior to any amendments and it was my understanding that if the amendments failed, that we would have an opportunity to speak again if we had not had sufficient speeches on the majority report as it originally was presented.

BISHOP IVES: You will indeed have that opportunity if the motion that is before us fails.

GOLDMAN: Thank you.

BISHOP IVES: The motion before us is a motion. The previous question has been moved and we must vote on that. At this point, the question is, are you ready to vote or would you rather have additional discussion? State your challenge to the decision.

THOMAS BOLLER (Yellowstone): I have absolutely no idea of what my brother from Mexico wants to say, but it seems to me that you did tell him that he would have the opportunity to speak. and I believe that that should be honored as opening up the conversation to those who have more...

BISHOP IVES: If the house should defeat the motion for the previous question, he will be the first one I will call upon to speak. The motion before us, which is undebatable, is a motion to move the previous question. Please vote when the light appears. [Results: yes, 477; no, 449] The motion fails. I would like to call...and it takes two-thirds...I would like to call on the delegate from Mexico. Come to microphone 9, please. Would you tell me whether you are speaking in favor of or against the majority report?

UNIDENTIFIED DELEGATE FROM MEXICO: [translated from Spanish] Could somebody help me?

BISHOP IVES: Could you tell me if you are speaking in favor of or in opposition to the majority report?

Delegate from Mexico Speaks for Current Disciplinary Language

DELEGATE FROM MEXICO [translated from Spanish]: I want to thank you for letting me speak at this assembly. I'm a pastor from North Mexico. He had major problems because a pastor from the United States came recently and had a ceremony approving homosexual relationships. This happened through television. We had so many headaches, we did not know what to do. In Mexico, we evangelicals are a minority. And our church has been in problems due to what took place.

Here we speak about human rights. We speak about grace. But that is not the issue here. The deal is to accept the authority of the Word of God. I am in support of the minority report. Because that paragraph number 71.F helped me defend United Methodism. When that program was on television, people came to make fun of us. I am in support of the Discipline of The United Methodist Church, and as part of my discussion with them, I showed them paragraph number 71.F to exhibit that homosexuality is no part of the United Methodist beliefs.

If you take that away, I don't know how to discuss these issues against them. The deal is to find out what the Bible means to us. What is grace, according to Wesley mean to us? In the letter that he wrote in 1639, and he said the following words: "I will show you where before was a lion, and now is a little lamb. One who before was a drunkard, and is now is an exemplary person. One who was before very promiscuous, and now he recognizes that he is a sinner."

If Wesley were to write a letter today, he would tell us that before you were homosexuals, and now you are a transformed person. That's God's grace. That which allows us to live in a position of fairness and equality and piety. I ask you to remember about Mexico and Latin American countries, in which we cannot accept that homosexuality is compatible with Christian education. Methodism is not only yours. Don't make us ashamed to be United Methodists.

BISHOP IVES: Muchos gracios. We have now had three speeches in favor and three speeches in opposition. By our rules, we go immediately to the vote. Having received those. After having those speeches from the persons, the maker of the motion. I want to ask the person who made the minority report first to make a closing statement, and then ask the chair of the committee to make a closing statements.

BISHOP IVES: What is your point of order? Microphone 6.

BERNARD (SKIP) KEELS (Baltimore-Washington): It is with great sadness that I rise to make this point of order. For I truly am as neutral as one can be on this issue. But, my sense of the legality of what just happened with the translation given the fact that we have translators who are official seems that we could put ourselves in serious legal difficulty should any words have been mistranslated, misheard or misinterpreted.

BISHOP IVES: I hear your point, but the delegation welcomed Mr. Goldschmidt's interpretation and he was the one who motioned to have him come and do it. Let's move to the brief statement of the minority report.

DAVID SEAMANDS (Kentucky): I'll keep this as brief as possible.

BISHOP IVES: Yes, Go to microphone 5.

CHRISTIAN ALSTED (Denmark): I'd like to ask, do the delegates who don't speak English have an extended time for their speeches? If they don't, I would like to ask if the time for those people could be extended, because time goes with the translation, especially with a translation like the one we just had.

BISHOP IVES: I appreciate that, but my understanding is that they were given additional time.

Speech Against Extention to All Types of Sexual Orientation

SEAMANDS: I want to refer back to my first point about substituting for a very clear, unambiguous, objective statement regarding the bounds of sexual intercourse confined to monogamous, heterosexual marriage, and substituting the words of a covenantal human relationship. This literally does pave the way for all kinds of sexual intercourse. Let me point out to you that in 1988 the masthead of Affirm was "United Methodists for Lesbian and Gay Concerns." In 1992, it became "For Lesbian, Gay and Bisexual Concerns." Now, in 1996, if you'll read the fine print on the right, this is issue number one; it is for "Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual and Transsexual People; come home to a church that isn't afraid to include lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgendered people in its ministry, membership, deliberations, clergy and life." I am very concerned about the extension to all types of sexual orientation. There only remains one left, and I'm not exaggerating and can give a score of references, that there is beginning a movement to OK "transgenerational" sex, which is sex between older and very young people, including those who are aged 9, 10, and 11. I can give a lot of references for that, and this is not the time to do it. But, the way we are moving, when you remove the biblical context and the negative parameters, then there are no parameters, except mutual, covenantal loving relationships. Now the second reason why I oppose the majority report and think we should maintain the language is that it articulates the biblical balance of the true tension which is at the heart of love; acceptance of all persons without approving their practices. We see this illustrated in Jesus, his amazing combination of tenderness and toughness, of incredible compassion and immovable confrontation of sinful practices. John 8:11, "Neither do I condemn you. Go your way, from now on don't sin again." With the woman at the well, Jesus threw away, literally, every religious, racist and sexist tradition. But, he did not throw away the necessity to confront her with the truth of her life. The pool at Bethesda, the same thing. He heals the man, then later finds him in the temple and says, "See you have been made well, do not sin any more lest nothing worse happens to you." Our Lord combines this tender toughness. Paragraph 71.F combines gracious hospitality, it combines a strong stand for civil and humane rights, but does not in any way lower moral standing. And that is true compassion and love at its best.

BISHOP IVES: Thank you, now we'll hear the closing statement of the majority report.

MERLIN ACKERSON (Iowa): Thank you Bishop Ives. Friends in the General Conference, I want to give to you my witness, or my testimony, of belief. I believe that God's word to us, above all other words, even above the Bible, is Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ is God's extraordinary and eternal word, and it is the most important thing in my life, even more important than the scriptures. I share with you one of the ways that this spells it out in my life. When I'm confused about what the Bible might say, on matters such as homosexuality, where on the one hand Jesus says nothing, neither do any of the prophets, we find it not in the wisdom literature, it's not in the 10 commandments. On the other hand, we're referred to Leviticus, and where we find where "a man should not lie with another man as with a woman," we find that there should be the death penalty.

Now in that confusion, I seek for the mind and the spirit of Christ for insight and for action. In this issue of homosexuality, Christ has taught me, motivated me to love, and to accept everyone, heterosexual and homosexual, without any exception, as persons God has created as we are. And, for whom also Christ has died. That's where I begin and that's where I end. In Christ above all. So I say to you my friends, let's not be afraid, there is nothing to be afraid of, to moving ahead to higher ground where we together are in unity in the name of Christ. Amen.

BISHOP IVES: Thank you. Now what is before us is the material on page 1216, that is the majority report as I understand it.

BISHOP IVES: You have a question? A matter of personal privilege? We're on page 12! 17th. Yes.

AMY L. SPACHMAN (West Michigan): I would respectfully ask the chair to have--pardon me, I'm losing my voice--to have two or three minutes of silent prayer to discern God's will.

Majority Report on Homosexuality Defeated

BISHOP IVES: Thank you, Amy. As soon as we finish making sure that we're clear and we're ready to vote, I will ask for us to be in reflective silence before we, before I call for that. I think we are ready for that now. The issue is before us. Let us be in silence as you prepare to vote.

[silence]

Will you now please vote when the light appears? You are voting on the majority report. I said we were voting on the majority report, which is the material on page 1217. That which is clearly before us, which we have been debating. Please vote when the light appears. The majority report is defeated by a vote of 577 to 378.

Pardon me? The order of the day is for us to break and go to dinner. After we have had announcements, and I would call upon the secretary to bring those announcements to us now. Somebody over here was--I can't recognize you without recognizing somebody else who was here. We have--the order of the day is for us to be in recess so there is no room to take any more action. No more motions can come at this point. We can receive no more motions. We are past the time of adjournment already.

OK, can we remain steady for just a moment? The question is being raised is, will this issue be before us again? There will be other--we had about six other issues that we hoped we would deal with today. We've dealt with only one of them. And surely there will be other time on the agenda for us to deal with matters which we have not completed today. After announcements, we will be in recess until 7:00, I believe. Carolyn, announcements. Announcements. Give your attention to the secretary.

CAROLYN MARSHALL: The Committee on Presiding Officers will meet immediately following adjournment this afternoon near the platform and on the side where the translation booths are located. During the dinner hour, we want you to know that there will be information and papers distributed on your desks from the Legislative Committee on Ordained and Diaconal Ministry. This will be information which you will need to have in order to participate in the session this evening. Want you also to know that the reason for distributing it this way other than something, other than the DCA as the rules read, is because that information was not available in order to be printed in the DCA today, and it is necessary for you to have it prior to the discussion.

BISHOP IVES: Without objection, that material will be distributed while we are on break. Just so that the house is clear where we are on this issue at this point, there was a motion to change the language of the Discipline. That motion did not prevail. The Discipline stands as it currently is written. I mean, just in case there's anybody who's going away from here with any question. I want to express my gratitude to you for your gracious way in which you have dealt with this issue today, and thank you for the opportunity to be here on this great historic occasion that we've shared today. Go in peace. May God bless you.

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1996 United Methodist General Conference